Between The Lines – April 15, 2026 – Full Show


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Panel: Scott Harris, Ruthanne Baumgartner and Richard Hill

SCOTT HARRIS: Welcome to Resistance Roundtable, broadcast on WPKN the third Thursday of each month, where we engage in conversation about local and nationwide organizing for a more just and democratic America during this pivotal and dangerous moment in our nation's history. Hosting today's show is Ruthanne Baumgartner, who was a longtime instructor in literature and writing at Central Connecticut State University and a member of the executive committee of the Connecticut Conference of the American Association of University Professors. Ruth serves as a member of the board of directors and is a theatrical director with the Westport Community Theater. And Ruthanne is here with us in the studio this evening. Hey, Ruthanne.
RUTHANNE BAUMGARTNER: Hi, everybody.

SCOTT HARRIS: Richard Hill is WPKN's public affairs director, co-host of the station's program Organic Farmstand, the monthly labor report, and a coordinating producer of Mic Check. Richard is a musician, teacher and mentor with Youth Radio ConnecticutH and he also is here in the studio with us this evening. Hey, Richard.

RICHARD HILL: Hi there.

SCOTT HARRIS: I'm Scott Harris, host of WPKN's weekly public affairs program, Counterpoint, and also producer of the syndicated show Between the Lines Radio newsmagazine. But right now, I'm very happy to welcome to our show retired Army Col. Lawrence Wilkerson, who served as chief of staff to Secretary of State Gen. Colin Powell from 2002 to 2005. Colonel Wilkerson is now a senior fellow with the Eisenhower Media Network and a prominent outspoken critic of U.S. foreign policy focusing on national security and military overreach. Col. Wilkerson, thank you so much for making time to be on Resistance Roundtable this evening.
COL. LAWRENCE WILKERSON: My pleasure. And I know a little bit about your area there as you were detailing it. I was a professor at the Naval War College for a couple of years and a student twice there, so used to get over into Connecticut a lot.

SCOTT HARRIS:
Okay. Well, that's good. You're a neighbor, a former neighbor. Thank you. Well, we appreciate you joining us this evening. And as we near the end of the two-week fragile ceasefire between the U.S. and Iran, where President Trump has recently ordered the naval blockade of Iran's ports on the Strait of Hormuz that key U.S. allies have protested. I wondered if you would, as we kick things off here, share with our audience your view of this U.S.-Israeli war on Iran launched on Feb. 28 that many political and military observers here in the U.S. and around the world have described as a strategic disaster.
COL. LAWRENCE WILKERSON: I wouldn't differ too much with that definition. I would add—and I think this is very important—we seem to have lost all care for this, but I think it's important if we're to have a world that is reasonably saying it's a war crime. It's a colossal war crime from start to finish. It's individually selected targets, the bombing of civilians and water facilities and schools and hospitals and all manner of other war crime targets—to the very fact that it was launched. It's a war of aggression. Sad to say, the secretary general was absolutely right at the U.N. when he pronounced the 2003 invasion of Iraq an illegal war. It was because that's what the UN charter says. After the Nuremberg Tribunal and all the deliberations over the Geneva Conventions and Helsinki and else, wars of aggression were supposed to be at least limited, if not stopped altogether.

This is a war of aggression, so it's a war crime.

SCOTT HARRIS: Thank you for that, Col. Wilkerson. Our co-host, Richard Hill, has a question followed by our other co-host, RuthAnne Baumgartner. But Richard, do you want to go first here?

RICHARD HILL: Thank you. Thank you. Col. Wilkerson, it is great to have you here. I follow your podcast appearances with great fealty on YouTube and other places and we appreciate your perspective on these important times and issues. But I know we've heard a lot about the asymmetric nature of the U.S. and Israeli war on Iran. And Trump and (Secretary of Defense) Pete Hegseth have claimed that the U.S. military has destroyed the entire Iranian Navy, the Air Force and anti-aircraft defensive systems. But we've also heard about Iran's asymmetric assets such as drones, short- and long-range ballistic missiles, fastboats and mines. Can you talk a bit about how these assets stack up against the massive combined military power of Israel and the United States? And specifically, this is something of interest to me in particular because I've been sort of following the drone warfare that's been happening in many loci around the globe, but it is one of the assets that Iran is deploying.
I'd like to know a little bit more about how that works, like how big are these things, what is their range of operation and what level of destructive power does each one of these drones possess to the point where they could actually stop and possibly destroy a large military vessel?

COL. LAWRENCE WILKERSON: Well, let's take the last part first, but I want to get to the first part too, because I think that's a very, very important question about asymmetric warfare. Drones come in different packages. The Iranians were very astute and paid very close attention to and have monitored significantly—I suspect they even had observers on the ground in Ukraine. They have watched what happened there. They have gone to school on it, and they are implementing their own version of it, plus whatever they saw in that conflict that looked productive to them, they're emulating. So they're using drones in a way that—and I'll give you a really graphic example of what I have seen on videos that have been passed to me from Lebanon—they're looking at the kind of concept that Israel, for example, is not paying any attention to or wasn't until they started losing tanks, one right after the other.

And that is that they moved in an armored column. Same thing happened in Ukraine initially. They know they're a lot smarter than that now. They moved in an armored column into Lebanon across the Latani River and in more or less administrative road march, there was hardly 15, 20 meters between the macavas, the Israeli main battle tank and they had no top cover whatsoever. You will not see a Russian or a Ukrainian tank in Ukraine moving without top cover now. It may be fabricated, it may be welded on, it may be jury rigged to the maximum, but it works and it works against principally drones. Nothing on the Israeli tanks. And so they moved in and I'm watching this video. The first tank is knocked out by a drone. Now, imagine this is Israel's best main battle tank. This is supposed to be one of the best in the world.

And here's this little drone up there knocking it out, but it didn't just knock out the lead tank very effectively. It knocked out the trailing tank. And then it started picking off the tanks in the middle. And then you watched the vaunted Israeli Hummered core personnel leaving their tanks and running up the hill of the opposite side because they were being slaughtered.

And this is happening, not so much now because they've learned their lesson, but it's happening and it's happening in a similar fashion, asymmetric fashion, in Iran in terms of other assets. What are they using their drones for? They're using them when their bigger missiles or their intelligence tells them that they've either destroyed with their missiles or they have found a place that's not very well protected by, I'll say the enemies' missiles, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE, the United States and then the drones go in and do their habit because there's no air defense really capable of bringing them down.

And it doesn't take much to bring a drone down unless it's really, really sophisticated. And these are not those kinds of drones, at least the majority of them aren't. And then what they do when there is capability there, they send in bigger stuff like Khorramshahr and more sophisticated missiles.

It's very carefully orchestrated to not expend the asset if you can help it and yet use it. They're doing the same thing in Israel right now and really doing some damage to Israel, colossal damage from what I've seen in the satellite photos—they are coming in with drones, whereas they wouldn't initially come in with drones because they'd be shot down. Well, what they've done is come in with drones periodically and exhausted the Israeli missiles that are principally air defense missiles, either ours like Thaad or Patriot or theirs like David's Sling and so forth.

Once those missiles were exhausted or down to such low supplies that the Israelis dare not shoot a lot of them, then the drones operated with impunity pretty much. But before that, they sent the Khorramshahrs in and the more sophisticated missiles, ballistic missiles, especially this one that they have that almost has like a MIRV warhead on it, like our nuclear missiles. It's not nuclear, of course, but what it does, they call it a cluster missile, but I don't think that's the right name for it. I think calling it a missile with multiple warheads, if you will, because what it does is it comes in at a certain altitude, preset on it, it explodes its nose cone and out comes 30 or 40 other submunitions that go all around in a circle and very much damage done inside that circle. And they fired a lot of these missiles.

So asymmetric for them and to go back to your earlier comment, to say that we've destroyed their Navy is to say nothing really, because they don't have a significant Navy. The significant Navy they do have, we have not totally destroyed and that's the real small, fast boats. But in terms of big ships, they don't have a Navy, not really. They don't have an Air Force either because even the F-14s that they got under the Shah, which were being husbanded by them, couldn't get repair parts because of our sanctions. So they don't really have an Air Force. So when you say asymmetric, you're saying, "Well, we are already up a country that doesn't have an Air Force and doesn't have a Navy, not really. " Now they do have an army and that army is huge. It's probably four, five, maybe six times as large as our army.

(11:51)
So if we ever do put significant boots on the ground, look for a real battle there. And I dare say they would probably win it because we simply don't have enough boots. The thing where they really, really have capability is their ballistic missiles. Awesome capability, because they probably haven't exhausted even half of them yet of all types, ranges, warheads and so forth. And Israel is being absolutely pummeled. And to a certain extent, the first tier target set within the Arab countries, which Iran attacked about a week ago, Bahrain being one of the targets where they destroyed the oldest refinery in the Gulf with just quintessential, incredible precision. I couldn't believe that they probably have—my guess and this is more than a guess because I have it from some people inside who tell me that it very well might be true—China has put a satellite up, a very special satellite, kind of like the satellite, but probably even more sophisticated than we gave Ukraine access to in order—if you'll recall back there a few months ago where Ukraine actually attacked very, very dangerously, some Soviet nuclear response equipment.

Really, we should never have done that, of course, because Putin would've been within his right to respond to that and even to respond with an attack on our early warning systems or something similar tit for tat, if you will. Very dangerous thing to do. But the way they were able to do that, Ukraine, was with our satellite guidance.

Well, that's what's being provided by China now to some of these Iranian missiles and targeting and intelligence. And the second tier that they're going to hit, if the ceasefire and the talks in Islamabad don't work—and I don't think they're going to, it's all farce really—this second tier is targets throughout the region that don't have any circumspection attached. In other words, they're going to take out Saudi Arabia's basic fundamental capability to produce oil and to ship it. They're going to do the same thing for the other countries and they're going to do similar things for regional powers like Jordan, Iraq, other places where they know Mossad, CIA, MI6 have facilities or have war fighting potential war stocks or whatever.

They're going to hit them all. I'll give you an example. The two ports they have targeted in Saudi Arabia will take down about eight, nine percent of the production capacity of Saudi Arabia. That's a heck of a lot when you think about it. Not only will it not be able to get out of the Strait of Hormuz or over to Jeddah on the Red Sea on their pipeline, it won't be there. It'll be flaming, it'll be burning. And so will the facilities and so will all the workers around there. They haven't done this to this point, but if they do do this, I've talked to some economists who say it's very likely the world will be in recession by the end of June and perhaps even depression by September or October if they do this because this will be absolutely devastating. Talk about asymmetric. I don't know what we'll do about that.

I'm really worried that we'll do something stupid, truly stupid.

And while I'm saying that about doing something truly stupid, professor Ted Postal, emeritus professor at MIT and a person whom I respect for his knowledge of nuclear weapons and particularly respect with regard to Iran, believes there's at least a 70, 60 chance. And if it's over 50, I'm going to plan for it, that Iran has underground plenty of highly enriched uranium, already has warhead capability and has the missile to match the uranium and the warhead with. So he's saying that they have a latent nuclear capability deep underground and they have labs in which to do all this deep underground, and that at some point in this, it may become two nuclear armed states looking at one another, one of whom is tiny and the other vast. So if there's a nuclear exchange there, Israel's going to be on the losing end of the proposition.

RICHARD HILL: Thank you so much. I reserve the right to ask you more questions later if we have time.

COL. LAWRENCE WILKERSON: Surely.

SCOTT HARRIS: Well, that's some dark forecasting. And I just want to reintroduce you. You're listening to Resistance Roundtable here on listeners sponsor WPKN and Bridgeport. We're speaking tonight with retired Army Col. Lawrence Wilkerson, a senior fellow with the Eisenhower Media Network. And I'll turn over from this dark forecast that we've just heard to you, RuthAnne.

RUTHANNE BAUMGARTNER: They know I want to say it. This is all the fault of giving little boys toy soldiers to play with, but I'm not going to say that this evening because I've said it often enough. I'm listening to you what I keep thinking of. What I keep thinking is there is willful stupidity going on. There cannot be in so many people in positions of responsibility in any armed effort, I would think, with so much vanity or so much ignorance that they would make the kinds of staggering bumbles that they've made. Is this a bystander's point of view or do you think that it's connected with some inherent vanity somewhere in the command structure?

COL. LAWRENCE WILKERSON: I think you can use all the adjectives you'd like, but I think there's something sitting at the center of this that is extremely sinister. I think Donald Trump, willingly, wittingly, I should say, or unwittingly—and I think wittingly—is providing agency for someone else. When I first began to suspect that, I looked to Moscow, especially when things seemed to be quite— between Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin and awkward in a way that looked as if they were trying desperately even to effect rapprochement between Moscow and Washington—and I couldn't exactly figure out why either of them really had an interest in that other than economic or oil-oriented, something like that. I no longer think that. I think he's providing agency for someone and I don't think it's Moscow. I think it's Bibi Netanyahu in Israel and I'm not sure what's at the center of that.

It could be Epstein, it could be a tremendous blackmail operation run by Mossad. I look back and I remember vividly (Colin) Powell's and my meeting with (Palestine Liberation Organization Chairman) Arafat in Ramallah right before Arafat passed away. And I remember his conversation about Tala farms and about the Oslo process and the shock that he registered with how quickly Bill Clinton and Ehud Barak, the then prime minister of Israel, terminated those talks. Shocked him and how quickly too—and this was even more indicative—how quickly too, the Israeli propaganda machine followed by the U.S. propaganda machine, began to operate almost within the moment of the talks failing to blame Arafat and the Arabs. So it looked like it was canned. It looked like it was already ready to go. Well, Barak was one of the most frequent visitors to Epstein's island and we all know Bill Clinton had a little problem too.

So I go back and look at that and try to explain to myself why those fairly successful talks to that point suddenly got derailed. And I'm thinking about blackmail and I'm thinking there's much more to Epstein than we will ever know. Even if we got full disclosure by justice and others, I'm not sure we would ever know all the things there are in those files and how many people are implicated in the Congress, in the government, in past governments. That would be a very powerful tool to use to create some agency in Trump that would look like absolute stupidity to a lot of us and even maniacal behavior. And yet it's understandable, I think, from a very vile perspective if there are powerful, powerful pictures or powerful evidence within those files about Melania and about Donald and perhaps a lot of other people too. So that's the only way I can explain it other than money.

Now, we all know that the president's the grifter in chief is what one person I know calls him. We know that Jared Kushner, Steve Witkoff, the whole clan are more interested in money than anything else. Kushner and Witkoff, for example, have never had a security clearance. They have never had a security clearance and yet they're dealing with the highest levels of national security and diplomacy associated there with, but they've never had a security clearance. They've never been through the process. So most of what they're doing when they go on their diplomatic jaunts is making money. By some measures, Jared Kushner has already agreed to with the Saudis or others about $200 billion in contracts. So that's a possibility, too, that money is at the root of all this and they don't give a hang about the nation. I don't think they do anyway, but it's hard to parse it without something giving you a reason why a president of the United States would provide agency for another power to the degree that he is doing it.

And we're going to find out just what degree that might be if we do wind up with some sort of threat to use nuclear weapons on either side of this war between Israel and Lebanon and Israel and Iran and of course us involved too. So it's a dangerous situation, I think, because we really don't have a president. What we have is a person who's acting for other powers.

RUTHANNE BAUMGARTNER: Was it Sherlock Holmes who said, "When all other hypotheses have been discounted, the one that remains—however strange, is the truth?"

COL. LAWRENCE WILKERSON: You got it.

RUTHANNE BAUMGARTNER: You're giving me the creeps here. It has the ring of ... It pulls in everything. And it's the only comprehensive answer I've heard.

COL. LAWRENCE WILKERSON: You may remember, too, that Arthur Conan Doyle is also the one who said the dog that didn't mark is the one to watch.

RUTHANNE BAUMGARTNER: Right.

SCOTT HARRIS: Very good. Col. Wilkerson, I wanted to go back to something you said at the outset of our conversation about war crimes. Both President Trump and Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth have issued pronouncements about this war against Iran that threatened war crimes. President Trump has threatened to destroy all of Iran's civilian electric power grid, and desalination plans. And of course, in one social media post, threatened to annihilate Iran's entire civilization. And Pete Hegseth, who calls himself the Secretary of War, has since he was confirmed by the Senate, consistently denounced the rules of engagement in war, the Geneva Conventions, declared there would be "no quarter or mercy for America's enemies." He held a prayer meeting recently calling for maximum of violence and stated that Pentagon's doctrine was now "maximum lethality, not tepid legality." All this as he fired dozens of top judge advocate general officers for the U.S. Army, the Navy, the Air Force the military's lawyers that determine if U.S. policy adheres to the Constitution and international law.

Col. Wilkerson, is the U.S.—under Donald Trump and the Republican party—taking action to eliminate international law and the rules-based order that the U.S. has been the primary advocate for since World War II, some 80 years?
COL. LAWRENCE WILKERSON: I think the answer to that question, sadly enough, is yes, and they've done it. I don't see how we walked this back because what we have created in the process of destroying everything from Nuremberg to the Geneva Conventions to Helsinki, to you name it—if it's international law, what we've done is create a Hobbesian world where the biggest is going to win and the smallest is going to suffer for that win. And we've created it. I don't see how you go back. I don't see how a president and a Congress and a court can resurrect that because we've taught the world what we are and what we mean.

And the world is now repulsed by us and gearing up to challenge us. Sixty percent of the world right now is probably on the other side, as it were. We're talking about a China with now-technological superiority, probably industrial base superiority and that means they can make ships a lot faster than we can, airplanes a lot faster than we can and so forth.

Other levels of superiority and what they call capitalism with Chinese characteristics and their latest pronouncement in a series of edicts from Deng Xiaoping all the way to Xi Jinping—with a little lull during Hu Jintao's time—which is why they got rid of him. They have put these edicts out and then fulfilled them. The latest one he issued has got no press in this country that I've detected and yet I was given a copy of it and was able to send it to Master Chas Freeman to make sure that Mandarin was translated properly because I was bowled over by it. And what it says in essence is, "We have come to be very powerful in all these aspects of state power, technology, military, industrial might and so forth. There's one we are not triumphant in yet. I am going to declare today that this will be the latest step in capitalism with Chinese characteristics. We're going to do the financial system."

And what he means is he's going to substitute the renminbi, the Chinese currency for the dollar. And he goes on in it to talk about how that'll get rid of SWIFT (The Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunications), that'll get rid of the Bretton Woods system altogether—that will allow all the world to operate without being under U.S. sanctions.

We have two billion people plus under sanctions right now. Think about that for a minute. There's a report coming out. I've seen it. It's very believable, done by some reliable people that says from 2000 to the present day—actually it goes through end of '25—American sanctions have killed 38 million people in the world. That's right, 38 million people. Many of whom, in fact, a majority of whom—a small majority—are children and women. In Iraq alone, our sanctions killed about 500,000 people. Madeline Albright, once when she was informed of that said, "Well, it was worth it. We got rid of Saddam Hussein."

This is not something the world likes. And so Xi Jinping is now saying, "Okay, China, you guys who have flocked to me, you guys in BRICS, you guys who I'm giving you development money and such, I'm going to take care of this last aspect of state power—call financial power—and I'm going to make sure that I eliminate that beast on the other side of the Atlantic that's doing this to you." And I have no doubt he's serious. Serious. And oil sales are already, in real terms, they're already, and other commodities, are being delineated now, paid for and such in other currencies. The ruble, the rupee, the renminbi. And now what they're going to do is make sure the renminbi becomes the base currency. The transactional currency, the reserve currency, the one that the dollar is doing right now.

And they didn't want to do this. They debated it in the Central Party School and in other places of power in China because they knew what the pound sterling did to Britain. They knew what the guilder did to the Dutch empire, if you will. Having this kind of financial power usually goes to state's heads. It usually corrupts them. Look at us, for example. It usually makes them squander their wealth because they can do it a lot easier and a lot faster than other people can because people will buy their debt because their currency denominates the world's system.

But China's going to be ... If you believe Xi Jinping, they're going to be careful about it. They're going to do it, but they're going to be careful about it. They're going to try to not get in the state the British did and the state the Dutch did and empires before them. But this is going to be very, very difficult for us because with almost $40 trillion aggregate debt and a trillion dollars now, interest payments on that debt every year, within eight to nine years to be $2 trillion, much of that, about 50 percent right now, trillion-dollar debt, interest payments we have now, about 50 percent of that is defense spending.

So we are in trouble in terms of the budget and deep, deep trouble. A Republican congressman yesterday even surprised me. And he said, looking at the president's request for $200 billion more on top of $1.5 trillion already going to DOD, DOW. He said, "This is insanity. This is utter insanity. We have not spent this money in World War II. We did not spend this money in any given year in World War II. Why are we doing this?" This is a Republican congressman. Now, he doesn't mark the majority, but soon he will if we keep doing this.

SCOTT HARRIS: Well, Col. Wilkerson has been a pleasure and a nightmare speaking with you this evening. No, we appreciate all the expertise and experience you bring to this conversation, dark as it is.

COL. LAWRENCE WILKERSON: Well, we just have to wake up, you know. Ben Franklin said a Republic, if we can keep it; a republic if we can keep it. And we just haven't been keeping it.
SCOTT HARRIS: Yeah. Well, listen, the Eisenhower Media Center is where you're at and people can find you and the commentaries online you get around. So we would love to have you back here to talk more about what's going to unfold in future months. So thanks for making time for us tonight.
COL. LAWRENCE WILKERSON: Surely. I'm always making time for anyone who cares.

SCOTT HARRIS: All right. Thanks, Col. Wickerson. Goodnight.
COL. LAWRENCE WILKERSON: Goodnight. Take care. Bye-bye.

SCOTT HARRIS: That's retired Army Col. Lawrence Wilkerson, a senior fellow with the Eisenhower Media Network who served as Colin Powell's chief of staff from 2002 to 2005. This is WPKN in Bridgeport. My name is Scott Harris here with Richard Hill and RuthAnne Baumgartner on Resistance Roundtable.

What is Resistance Roundtable?

The Resistance Roundtable with host Richard Hill and panelists Scott Harris, Ruthanne Baumgartner and guests. Following the 2017 Presidential Election, The Resistance Round Table, in the Armageddon Report, looks at issues raised by Donald Trump’s presidency. Particularly on issues of concern to the WPKN Community — issues that receive little, or no, mainstream media coverage.

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1) Brandon Carr, Studies Associate at the Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft, and Kevan Harris, Associate Professor of Sociology at the University of California, LA, discuss their views on the 5-week US, Israeli bombing campaign against Iran that many call a strategic disaster, the future of negotiations to end the war, Israel's continued destabilizing attack on Lebanon, and the dangerous erosion of international law.

2) Julie Hollar, Senior Analyst with the group Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting (FAIR), discusses her recent commentary, "Who Will SAVE America From Misleading Coverage of Voter Suppression?" and the importance of calling out the disinformation in Trump and GOP talking points re: their false claim that millions of non-citizens are voting and discrediting U.S. election outcomes.

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