Trump’s Cognitive Decline More Obvious Every Day

Interview with John Gartner, a prominent psychotherapist, author and founder of Duty to Warn, conducted by Scott Harris

John Gartner shares his concerns about President Trump’s deteriorating mental health as he nears the end of his first year in his second term in the White House. He also addresses the cult-like devotion Trump continues to command from millions of Americans. He cofounded the group, Duty to Warn in 2017, with other mental health professionals and laypeople to warn the community-at-large of impending danger of Donald Trump’s presidency.

SCOTT HARRIS: But we begin our program tonight by welcoming to Counterpoint, Dr. John Gartner and Dr. Gartner, thank you so much for making time for us.
JOHN GARTNER: Oh, thank you for having me.
SCOTT HARRIS: So I’d like to tell our audience that Dr. Gartner is a psychologist, a psychotherapist, and author and founder of the group Duty to Warn, founded in 2017 by mental health professionals and laypeople to warn the community at large of the impending danger of Donald Trump’s presidency. That was back in 2017 and Dr. Gartner specializes in bipolar disorder, borderline personality disorder and depression, and he was a contributor to the book, The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump: 27 Psychiatrists and Mental health Experts Assess a President that was published back in 2017. But I know that Dr. Bandy Lee, who’s been a guest on our program in the past, also has a newer book out. And I think you contributed to that book as well, Dr. Gartner.
JOHN GARTNER: Oh, I’m not sure. It may be a reprint or I think an expanded edition maybe where they’ve added some new contributors.
SCOTT HARRIS: No, that’s right. I think you’re right. It was updated. And first of all, I wanted to let our audience know we’re going to be talking about some of your assessments of Donald Trump, his mental health, the concerns that many Americans have about his mental acuity. But first of all, just tell our audience briefly, if you would, about the group you founded Duty to Warn.
JOHN GARTNER: Well, I studied under someone who is an expert in a very obscure personality disorder, malignant narcissism. It’s not even in the DSM, it’s a historic diagnosis. It’s introduced by Eric Fromm. I’m getting to answering your question. And it was his attempt to explain the psychology of Hitler and other leaders like Hitler. And he actually fled from Hitler. And it has four basic components: narcissism, antisocial, personality disorder. So basically your basic criminal personality of people who lie, who break laws and norms, who violate the rights of others and have no conscience. Paranoia, his sense of always being a victim and aggrieved and demonizing immigrants and people who disagree with him. And finally sadism so that the pleasure and the relish he takes in destroying, demeaning, defacing everything. So I immediately saw that Donald Trump was a mortal threat to the country in 2015. And so as soon as he was elected, I felt I had to do something.

So I created a petition for mental health professionals and that sort of ended up becoming Duty to Warn, which is that mental health professionals band together. And the term duty to warn comes from actually one of our ethical responsibilities, which is that if we think someone is in danger—the narrow understanding is that there was a case where someone told the therapist that we’re going to kill their girlfriend and then they did and he didn’t warn her. So that now it’s in all 50 states, it’s the law, you have a duty to warn a potential victim.

But my logic was if we have a duty to warn one victim, don’t we have a duty to warn hundreds of millions of victims? Because as mental health professionals, we understood how dire a predictor these kinds of traits were—whether you use the term malignant narcissism or not, people who with this kind of sadism and psychopathy and mental instability, we knew that this would be someone who would be very destructive to the people. And so we felt a moral responsibility to warn them. So I say I feel like I’ve been the psychiatric Paul Revere, except I haven’t been able to get off my horse for 10 years.

SCOTT HARRIS: Oh my. It’s been 10 years. Yes. Feels like a century. Dr. Gartner, I did want to ask you this. There’s often in discussing Donald Trump’s psychology and those in the profession who assess him, there’s a mention of the Goldwater Rule, which refers to some psychoanalysis of Barry Goldwater, the Arizona senator who ran against Lyndon Johnson in 1964, I believe that was. Tell us about the Goldwater Rule and what you think is right and wrong about the idea that from a distance, those in the psychiatric profession shouldn’t be assessing public figures.

JOHN GARTNER: Right. Well, actually you phrased it very well. We’re not supposed to be assessing public figures. In other words, it’s not that we can’t give a diagnosis without interviewing the patient. It’s really been sort of a “cover-your-ass” rule to make sure that psychiatry, the professional psychiatry isn’t embarrassed and doesn’t offend powerful people as happened in the case of this Goldwater incident that produced the ruling. Actually, the other thing that is different is that the case is based on a now defunct magazine, Fact Magazine published a survey. They said a survey of a thousand psychiatrists say that Goldwater is unstable. Now actually, this did actually contribute to Goldwater losing the election. Johnson kind of ran on the idea that Goldwater was an unsteady finger on the nuclear button if you remember the Daisy ad.
SCOTT HARRIS: Yes.
JOHN GARTNER: The famous Daisy ad that was playing off that same fear. And the truth is Goldwater was not unstable. It actually was untrue. So he had a really legitimate case for libel and he sued them and he won. He won $75,000 of it. So I actually had a chance to interview the last living member of the ethics committee that drafted the Goldwater rule. And the thing that disturbed him about it at the time was not the idea that a psychiatrist would comment a public figure, but that at that point, Freudian psychiatry was really in its peak of ascendancy. And so a lot of the comments were things like he’d been scarred by his potty training or he had an unresolved Oedipus complex or he was a latent homosexual. These really were wild speculations. And to be fair, the magazine itself kind of picked the most prurient—to kind of get the most clicks as it were.

But the thing is that he said, what was embarrassing to us was that these psychiatrists were making statements that really weren’t based on science or fact. And so he said, I’ve said this, and he’s also said this, Alan Dyer is his name. He’s still alive, he’s still writing. We adopted a diagnostic system. He never meant this to, he said, to be a gag order on psychiatrists. He just didn’t want them making irresponsible public statements.

Well, in the 1980s, we adopted a new diagnostic system, the DSM-3, where all diagnostic criteria are based on observable behavioral criteria. So if you can observe someone’s behavior reliably, then you can actually kick off the boxes for the diagnostic criteria. For example, I mentioned that Donald Trump has antisocial personality disorder as one of his disorders. Well, the first diagnostic criteria is frequently lies. Well, the Washington Post has documented that he is actually the most documented liar in human history and I don’t think there’s even a close second.

They stopped counting at 30,000 lies. I think we can literally say, “We’ve observed this, it’s verified, and we can check that box and we go down the list.” Breaks laws and norms. Well, he’s convicted of 34 felonies. We know he’s guilty of much more and much worse. Breaks norms obviously and violates the right of others. Well, he is an adjudicated sex offender, so I guess we can say he violates the rights of others and a lack of guilt or anxiety about it.

So look, I mean, this isn’t rocket science. We know that these behaviors are part of diagnostic syndromes that are very, very dangerous and it’s right there in front of our eyes. And really the media has been sort of gaslighting us by acting as if this is somehow some either unknowable thing or only irresponsible, unethical psychologists would be making these wild statements when actually it’s as simple as the nose on our face.

We have eyes and ears. Even if you’re not a professional, you can see that these are incredibly destructive and damaging behaviors. And anyway, that’s the history of Duty to Warn. Now, what we’re seeing though is a collision of his personality disorder with his ongoing, I think very clear signs of dementia. And when people develop dementia, if they have any kind of personality disorder or personality problem, they become dramatically worse. Whatever their personality disorder is, it becomes dramatically worse. It becomes more aggressive, more impulsive, more disinhibited, more disorganized, more primitive and more erratic. And that’s what we’re seeing here. He’s still the same sick, destructive person, but now it’s becoming completely impulsive, confused, disoriented.

We can go down the list, but basically to diagnose dementia, we have to see deterioration from someone’s baseline in four basic areas, language, memory, psychomotor performance and behavior. We’re seeing all of these in Donald Trump. People don’t realize this, but Donald Trump used to be very articulate. He’s actually not stupid or he wasn’t stupid. If you look at tapes of him speaking in the 1980s, he was very articulate and he spoke in polished paragraphs. Now he can barely complete a sentence. Sometimes he can’t even complete a word, and we actually have a name for that. It’s called phonemic paraphasia, and it is a very diagnostic sign of dementia. All of his words he can’t pronounce. That is really a sign of disorganization.

But worse than that, his thinking has become so tangential. There’s really no, he doesn’t understand the question. He responds to some random thought and then he just has his own sort of chain of loose associations to it. The example I like to give is when he was on the USS Washington, he said, “I never like good looking people. I never admitted that before, but you see, I’m allowed to because we won in the Supreme Court based on merit. You know about that. Right now, everything in this country is based on merit.”

Now, how did any of those ideas go together? First of all, it’s sort of disinhibited that he’s saying, I’d never liked good-looking people. But then he’s saying, I can say that now because we won on the Supreme Court based on merit. I mean, his thoughts are gummed together, and we see him kind of talking about the irrelevant details going on for 15 minutes about the kind of paint that was used or the grass that was used. So we’re seeing it in language. We’re also seeing it in memory. When he met with Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries to negotiate over the shutdown, he said that Chuck Schumer had come with a very nice man. He brought a very nice man with him as if he’d never met him before, as he had no idea who he was. This is the minority leader of the house. He knows who he is. This is the kind of level of memory loss we’re talking about where you don’t recognize someone that you’ve known for years.

Right? That’s not just forgetting a name or have you. And his behavior is more disinhibited. He’s become all of this cursing and calling people “piggy” and calling everyone stupid and lashing out. It’s a sign of disinhibition and also the erratic way that he’ll have a bad morning and he’ll say, that’s it. 200 percent tariffs on China, where he cut off trade negotiations with Canada because he got annoyed that morning because Doug Ford, the premier of Ontario, published a tweet about Ronald Reagan being against tariffs.

And finally there’s a psychomotor, if you notice, he’s got, we call a wide-based gait that’s very diagnostic frontotemporal dementia. He swings his right leg around as if it’s a dead weight in kind of a semicircle. I’ve been noticing this for we’ve been talking about this for almost a year now, but it got dramatically worse recently, perhaps just because the dementia’s worsening or perhaps because he had a stroke. I think it could be both. But if you saw that videotape of him and his grandchild, he’s practically limping, but he’s using that wide-based gait that I’m talking about. So in all of these areas, we see the classic signs of dementia and deterioration, but in someone that has a monstrous personality in an administration where there are no guardrails, what could go wrong? (Chuckles)

SCOTT HARRIS: (Laughs)That’s going to be the topic with the rest of our time together tonight. John. we’re speaking with Dr. John Gartner, a psychologist and psychotherapist, author and founder of the group Duty to Warn. Dr. Gartner. I was just thinking about some of the examples of what you would consider symptoms of dementia and of other disorders you’ve identified.

Just recently, we’ve seen Donald Trump lash out at an entire community, the Somalians living in Minnesota, basically calling them every name in the book. He’s also called for the execution of Democratic legislators who informed military service people that they should not follow or obey illegal orders. And then just the other day, or I should say just today, I heard after the apparent homicide involving Rob Reiner, the movie director and his wife, Donald Trump said in one of his social media posts that he died—that Rob Reiner died because he was critical of Trump. I mean, this was something again, just I read it today before I came to the station. There’s a lot of discussion about Trump’s reduced work schedule, fewer appearances. The New York Times covered a lot of that. I wondered if you would just talk about some of the other examples and what your major concern is about someone like Donald Trump, who uniquely in the world has the nuclear codes to the world’s deadliest arsenal of nuclear weapons.
JOHN GARTNER: I know. We really have reason to be utterly terrified. This really is kind of the worst case scenario. We kind of have a mad king, but a mad king with dementia and a mad king with dementia has the absolute power to destroy the world and kind of the temperament to do it. I mean, he really is. We’re seeing now because maybe because of the dementia and because he has so much power, the combination of the two is he’s acting out in all of these incredibly destructive ways.
We always knew he was a racist, but to go on and on demonizing a whole ethnic group in extended terms, it’s being expressing itself in more primitive and in ways where he’s more inclined to just impulsively go into action. So he’s the American Hitler by personality, right? So we understand why he would want to jail his critics and because that’s what fascists do and he has the fascist personality disorder, but also now because he’s become so cognitively declined, it’s expressing itself in these ways that are so grotesque and so inappropriate and so bizarre, and this is only going to get worse. I always say to people, look at Donald Trump today because that’s the best Donald Trump you’re ever going to see because we’re talking about a deteriorating illness. But the problem is, as he’s deteriorating, no one is stopping him.
SCOTT HARRIS: Absolutely true. What do you make of these Cabinet meetings where we have a group of groveling sycophants, I don’t think there’s any other way to describe them. Just heaping praise on Donald Trump on cue in line and it’s the most bizarre thing I’ve ever seen in terms of any president of this country. And Trump, of course, expects this kind of groveling and just over the top admiration coming from these folks.
JOHN GARTNER:  Well, obviously you haven’t seen many cabinet meetings in North Korea.
SCOTT HARRIS: No, I haven’t. (Laughter) The cameras are shut off in that room.
JOHN GARTNER: Yeah, but I’m sure that’s what they’re like. But even more bizarre than that is that he’s passing out in these Cabinet meetings and he fell asleep three times. And actually to your point, there was this really funny footage where he’s right next to Marco Rubio and Marco Rubio was going on and on prostrating himself like, “O, great leader because of you, because you’re so wonderful. I forget, I’m talking. He was saying, blah, blah, blah, and Trump is (snoring noises). So listen, the guy’s working 12 to 5, according to the New York Times, working 12 to 5, but he still can’t stay awake, and he is falling asleep over and over again. We were talking about this for a year now. Remember when he was falling asleep most days at his criminal trial?

I have put this challenge out over and over again. I’ve spoken to dozens of lawyers and I keep putting out there, if anyone out there can disprove it, get in touch with me. And every lawyer I’ve talked to said in their entire careers, they’ve never heard of a defendant falling asleep at the defense table. You’re in the dock, your life is on the line and you’re in the limelight. He said, I’ve seen a lot of jurors fall asleep. You’ve seen a few judges fall asleep, but no one can tell me they’ve ever seen a defendant fall asleep. He fell asleep most days.

That’s talking about, look, if you’ve ever had a relative who had dementia, then you notice sometimes they just pass out. It’s not like the way an older person might take a nap or even fall asleep in a movie or late at night after they’ve had some wine and turkey and people are talking around them. This is really just in the middle of the day with cameras rolling, with your life on the line, just passing out. And he’s doing it over and over again, and now he even knows he’s being criticized for it, but he still can’t stop doing it because it’s completely, he’s losing control of his basic biological functions.

And it’s making him look weak, which he hates. So he threatened the New York Times and said that they were publishing this article about his falling asleep and his decline was the equivalent of treason. He said, anyone who says that about me, it’s treasonous. Well, of course I’m one of those people who are saying that about him. So now I guess I’m going to be in the Justice Department’s sites for treason.

SCOTT HARRIS: Yeah. Dr. Gartner, in talking about all of Trump’s dysfunction in the specific ways you have, the question arises who’s in charge of our government? A lot of people are concerned that somebody like Stephen Miller, who’s very close to the president and is I think the primary responsible person in the White House for a lot of both the domestic and foreign policy decisions—it’s wild. I don’t expect that you or I could know who really is in charge, but what’s the danger in that?

JOHN GARTNER: Well, they used to say in the Middle Ages, a bad king is better than no king. But no king is better than a child king because the child king, you just have all this internecine warfare and court politics and wars, and it’s just total chaos. I think it is very dangerous to have a leader who’s slipping and then having other people around them assuming covert power. Stephen Miller, I think is the greatest threat. I think he’s insane. I think he is truly a Nazi. I think he’s channeling Goebbels in a way that’s psychotic, and he really wants to create another Holocaust. He is driven to create another Holocaust. This is what he’s doing with these immigrants. He wants to put them in concentration camps, and the concentration camp doesn’t necessarily mean a death camp. The internment camps with the Japanese were concentration camps, yes, any camp where we concentrate undesirable people based on race or religion, that’s a concentration camp.
However, they’re also outsourcing the death camp part of it because now they want to send people to these third world hellholes, where we know from Gabriel Abrego Garcia, he said that they used to say to him, “Every day, you’re going to die here. No one gets out of here alive.” So it’s a death sentence and he wants to terrorize the immigrants in the cities. I mean, really, this is like Kristallnacht.
There’s a reign of terror going on in this country, right? ICE is essentially a reign of terror. What is it? These masked thugs, breaking windows, wrestling people to the ground, throwing them into unmarked trucks, and then not accounting for them afterwards. I mean, this is a true reign of terror. This is Stephen Miller, and then there’s Russell Vought who just wants to completely destroy the federal government, and he’s doing that piece by piece. So yeah, Trump has sort of delegated to these guys, and I can’t imagine a more destructive duo right now.
SCOTT HARRIS: Well, I only have a couple of minutes left, but Dr. Gardner, I did want to ask you, what’s the realistic possibility that people internally at the White House in the Cabinet could invoke the 25th Amendment, which is there to oust a president who can no longer function as head of state with the actions and the response we’ve seen of the cabinet members to Trump and the groveling, the sycophancy, it’s hard to imagine they would, but maybe some of them will be patriotic and do the right thing. I don’t know.
JOHN GARTNER: Well, I think I’ve always been very pessimistic about that because of exactly what you’re saying, because of sycophancy to think of any of them standing up to Trump, much less in such a concerted way because he’s going to fight it. He’s not going to accept it. It’s hard to imagine them having the cajones to do that. On the other hand, I think we are starting to see some of his power weakening, some cracks forming. And actually, to be honest, I think because he is so deteriorated and so patently losing it that I think it is emboldening—plus because he’s so unpopular—I think it is emboldening some people to begin to defy him or break away from him in some ways. 
The Congress passed this rule against his will nullifying one of his executive orders about collective bargaining. The point is that they’ve never gone against him over anything before. So I think there is some hope, but we really are in a kind of race because unfortunately, I think he’s going to deteriorate very rapidly. He’s at a stage now where I think the rate of deterioration is increasing and he can do a lot of damage, and these people really don’t seem to be capable of creating any kind of barriers or boundaries or standing up to him and much less unseating him from power. So I’m afraid we’ve got a long way to fall before we hit the ground.
SCOTT HARRIS: And just the last question here, millions of Americans still to this day, despite all the actions which are so detrimental to even his own voters, but millions of Americans really have this kind of just incredible devotion and loyalty to Trump no matter what he does. Is there a breaking point with that? I know there will always be people devoted to Trump no matter what, but do you think with his recent actions and diminishment, we might see some falling away?

JOHN GARTNER: Well, I think we are seeing some falling away with his actions. As you say that it’s harming his own voters and with his diminishment, I think that the polling numbers are dramatic, right? I mean, his numbers have dropped like 50 points in every category that you could think of. So yeah, what’s left are the fanatical true believers, the cult members who I think (Theodor W.) Adorno talked about, the authoritarian personality, trying to think of what type of person would be attracted to a Hitler. And a lot of them are attracted to him because they themselves are enraged and aggrieved, and he channels that rage and creates in them a sense of power from a sense of feeling impotent and defeated to feeling powerful and dominant. And that feeling is very intoxicating. And so because he takes them from that degraded position to that dominant position and basically joins with them in slaying their enemies, it’s all about hating the people that you hate and defeating them. That’s the sacred bond that no amount of boorishness or pedophilia or corruption can dissuade.

SCOTT HARRIS: Well, Dr. Gartner, thanks for spending time with us and your informed observations of our president and all the frightening things that brings to mind every day. How can our listeners find out more about what you’re writing about and again, your observations in the near term?

JOHN GARTNER: Well, we’ve stopped our podcast, and I don’t have a Substack, just look for me online. I’m regular guest on The Daily Beast. Actually, I did a video for the Times of London called the Radio Times, and it actually has broken 3 million. It’s the number two video in their entire history of their program. And I think it’s not because of my charm, good looks or brilliance. I don’t think anyone would disagree with me about that. I think it’s because people are really desperate to understand what the hell is going on. And so for a professional to give them some perspective, there’s a desperate need for that right now. I think there’s a desperate demand for it.

SCOTT HARRIS: Absolutely. And I’m glad, yeah, I caught that video at the Times. That was great.

JOHN GARTNER: Oh, thank you.

SCOTT HARRIS: Anyway, thank you for your time this evening and for sticking your neck out and really telling it like it is in terms of what we can all see our emperor with no clothes. So thank you very much.

JOHN GARTNER: The emperor has no brain.

SCOTT HARRIS: Yes, it seems so

JOHN GARTNER: And no soul.

SCOTT HARRIS: Absolutely. Dr. Gartner, thank you so much. We’ll stay in touch. Love to have you back to talk more about what we see. Maybe it’ll be some amazing miracle solution, and we’ll find.

JOHN GARTNER: From your mouth to God’s ear.

SCOTT HARRIS: All right. Take care. Goodnight.

JOHN GARTNER: Alright, take care.

SCOTT HARRIS: Bye-bye. Bye. That’s Dr. John Gartner, psychologist and psychotherapist, author and founder of the group, Duty to Warn.

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